Short on Religion

by Colson on Feb. 27, 2008, under religion

Last week end I went to the pub with some friends. After the second round Jan said: “What on earth makes you always write those lengthy posts? Nobody is crazy enough to read that boring stuff!”

religion 1

Me: “????”

Then Jeroen added: “And why the hell don’t you ever write about religion? That’s what everybody wants to talk and read about these days!”

Me: “Okay. What will be your next drink? Same?”

Well, I never ignore the advice of real friends. So here I come:

In “the Australian” of february 27th I read that a large scale Gallup survey has determined that religion is not the driving force behind radicalism. But may I ask: it isn’t exactly the countervailing force either, is it?

Our Dutch Prime Minister the other day told us in “The Hour of Power ” that without religion you can not be a proper citizen. Oh, thank you, mister Balkenende. Of course, only those of your tribe are.

In Indonesia as an agnostic I even don’t exist. Thank you, very much. I know my place; I’ll hide under a stone.

RELIGION. IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN WE COULD DO WITHOUT. MAYBE RELIGIONS ARE HARMLESS, BUT BELIEVERS VERY OFTEN ARE NOT.

Wavatar Sandy (Momisodes)
Feb. 28, 2008

“it isn’t exactly the countervailing force either, is it?” —Couldn’t agree more…..

Wavatar Bonnie2405
Feb. 28, 2008

You’ve still got that survey? I’m interested.

Wavatar guebukanmonyet
Feb. 29, 2008

Don’t you think you’re a bit too old to go to a pub? Lol. Well, maybe you’re not that old after all. It’s always interesting to talk about religions, isn’t it? Some people may not like the fact that religions rule this world, they say it’s boring. But there are people who can really find peace in those religions. Mmmh. I’m confused, hehe.

Wavatar Marisa
Feb. 29, 2008

Yes, our moral boundaries have been forcefully confined within religious norms. Sometimes I wonder if that’s against human rights, but then, does it matter? as how most would question the subject. Theism exists, atheism also exists, but most importantly: the universality of one’s spiritual enlightenment exists. In other words, heaven is for all.
Eventhough admitting religion as a product of civilization is basically saying *god* as a personified being does not exist, but it isn’t precisely religion that people fear, it’s not even hell; it’s themselves in flesh and blood-the pain of being burned in hell. It’s a better justification though, rather than saying one has a religion because one fears the public opinion of not having any.
Anyhow, in my opinion, radicalism can be imposed in any form, even an atheist can be as radical as every other religious fanatic. If religion is all about living, loving, and chanting kumbaya, no radicalism whatsoever, would an atheist still be an atheist? Etc etc. True humanism asks questions. Still a long way to go to that point of civility where “questions” are actually spiritual quests, as in a way holy scriptures used to be.
For now, to co-exist upon common grounds would be the best option available.

Wavatar mulia
Feb. 29, 2008

i am not sure of what you are trying to say Colson..
write longer post
:D

Wavatar colson
Feb. 29, 2008

Mulia and Marisa, you don´t seem to agree with my friend Jan. He wanted it short, but your comments ask for some further explanation.

My point is: believers are not always nice to other believers or non-believers. They sometimes (often) try to define the room others are entitled too in terms and within the boundaries of their own Utopian truths.

Faith is fine with me. Indeed I would applaud every adult who makes one or a few spiritual journeys. I mean, you should not take for granted what’s been offered to you by the coincidence of your birth and environment. Come up with some fundamental questions of your own.

Some may look for definite answers to these questions ( why are we on earth, what’s the sense of life, are we destined for an after life, what’s good and what’s evil). Although my idea of a successful exploration is to have found a few better, deeper, questions. And some hints for a meaningful life. There is this saying by Willem van Oranje , `you need not to hope in order to undertake, one need not to succeed in order to persevere´. Well, in a way that sums it up for me.

But all this is a personal, individual experience. One can/may share it with others – soul brothers and – sisters so to say. But one should never bother others with your solutions in this area, without being asked for it. And more important: by all means keep it a private matter and do not make it a political one. Three cheers for secularism, because we share one society but have lots of individual and different metaphysical ideas.

As for radicalism and religion… Of course organized religion does not show reassuring historical records. To put it mildly. That’s the risk of Utopia’s. And, in my opinion, religions are Utopian. Most of them, at least the main two of the three monotheistic ones, present a perfect future in afterlife. At the same time their Utopia´s are for the wellbeing of all mankind. But unfortunately usually whether the others like it or not. `You are either with us or against us´, an acting President told the world not long ago. Like him, many believers yield to this inbuilt lure of Utopia´s, to use them as yardsticks for believers and non believers alike. The others can comply voluntary, but it´s not an exception that unwilling members of their society are forced to accept the Utopian truths.

But I agree with Marisa and anyone else who tells me all kinds of drastic Utopia’s – whether they are to be reached in afterlife of here on earth – are prone to bloody radicalism. I read John Gray’s “Black Mass”. And I know Robespierre, Stalin, Hitler and Mao were atheists with Godless Utopia’s on their mind and yet in the name of their ideals of a happy mankind, they slaughtered tens of millions of people as well.

Of course, it´s not the Utopia which is to blame, it´s the people who abuse it. But be always on your alert in the vicinity of over enthusiastic believers.

So, as long as believers and non believers keep modest about their Utopia´s, there´s no problem. But as soon as their Utopia´s become political goals, when they are made into weapons in the public domain, I get uneasy. About fascists, about communists, about reborn apocalyptic Christians, about salafists and the like.

To be more concrete I want mr Balkenende to shut up, in his capacity as prime minister of the Netherlands, to broadcast to me and other non believers we are in fact invalid citizens.
I want it to be made possible for any agnostic in Indonesia to be officially recognized.
And I want some modesty in general on the part of big mouthed believers of all denominations.

PS Guebukanmonyet, every time I get thirsty two robust nurses take me for a pub crawl in my wheelchair. And if I´m in the mood they afterwards kindly escort me to sit dribbling through an after party downtown.
PPS Guebukanmoyet, No, no, this is not true. I´m just a merry alcoholic.
PPPS Guebumanmonyet, That is not true either.
PPPPS Guebukanmonyet, But, you know, grandfathers get fitter and younger all the time nowadays. And this is really true.

Wavatar mulia
Feb. 29, 2008

As you may know Colson, i am a religious person, a believer, faith holder (what’s the correct way to say this?), etc..
i am wearing headscarf, a moslem come from a country which has many terrorist bombing people from all around the world.

but i don’t mind..i just wana sing..

…
Now I’m a believer
Not a trace
Of doubt in my mind
Now I’m a believer
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah
I’m a believer
Then I saw her face
I’m a believer
Not a trace
Of doubt in my mind
I’m a believer

hehe..
but, i am a LIBERTARIAN BELIEVER, so i also endorse that the system of choosing one religion in Indonesia should be revisited. So agnostic like you wont have to be forced choosing one religion. Eh i was joking, have u seen my joke? here http://mulia.nurhasan.net/2008/01/22/agnostic/

it’s just a joke. Anyway, meanwhile you can say..i’m moslem or christian by descendant, no?

Wavatar colson
Feb. 29, 2008

A good one.

I’d better not wait for the moment till I’ve got wings to ask for free advice. I guess.

PS: I love libertarians of any denomination. Maybe we are soulsister/brother.

Wavatar mulia
Mar. 1, 2008

soulsister/brother?

hehehe..sounds cool. but, who are you guys?
i mean..forgive my antisocial attitude in blogging, but you dont mention it clearly in ABOUT.
mind explaining?

Wavatar Colson
Mar. 1, 2008

You? Anti social? What are you talking about?

Let me introduce myself.

First of all brand new and very proud grandpa of Devica Esha. And weathered father three daughters (in law) – Britt, Feby a.k.a. Bali and Bonnie- and three sons (in law) – Gunnar, Ingmar and Pnin.

And an “aging socialist” or rather an aging social democrat.

A retired management consultant.

A lover of literature, theater, (art house) cinema and the European art of the interbellum.

Anti Friedman, pro Keynes.

Dutch by birth and nationality, Scandinavian by nature ( you may have noticed the names of my daughters and sons: Britt, Gunnar,Ingmar) and Indonesian by family ties (Wife: 50%, Children: 25%, Daughters in law: 100% Indonesian blood).

A member of Amnesty International.

Wavatar rima
Mar. 6, 2008

Mr. Colson, there is nothing wrong with being an agnostic.
This is something I wrote in my blog:

I was once upon a time a religious person. I am now a spiritual-romantic-intellectual agnostic.

I am the daughter of a fanatic intellect who taught me to be critical. Because of the way my father raised me, I grew up into a critical young woman, one who eventually broke his heart. He paid a dear price for letting me be my own person and become extremely critical (compared to other people from my country and generation).

When I was 25, I was at a turning point in my life where I could no longer believe in the religion I was born into and decided to convert to another religion that is closer to the values I believe in. When my father found out, he disowned me. This was 7 years ago and I am still an outcast in my own family.

My first religion was a very strict one that rendered me a fanatic. When I converted to my second (and somewhat present) religion, I could not shake off the need to be a fanatic to the new religion. I was still the same fundamentalist, just with a different outfit and set of beliefs.

In the past 4 years, I have experienced so many new and interesting things that have turned me into an even more critical person than I ever was. However, critical as I maybe, these turns of events have also made me much less religious and fanatical (to religion but not to music). I have found that being a spiritual agnostic agrees with me much more than whatever it is I was doing before ever did. I was finally happy and doing good things in life.

Of course I still believe in God/Higher Power/Deity but I have relinquished all organized religions because I personally think that they just cause complete chaos, segregation, hatred towards other groups, suspicious mindset and limit my thinking ability and willingness (not to mention how both my religions used to force me into believing certains things without the possibility or permission to break the mold, and to think and ask questions out of the box).

Eventhough I know that my kind are most likely condemned by most people from my own country (daddy included), I now choose to live life with love (to the best of my ability) and I try to be as kind possible to anyone without the guidelines of a specific religion. I strongly believe that as humans, we were all born with a moral compass, we are all familiar with the primordial morality – do not do to others what you don’t want done upon you.

Yes, I am a spiritual-romantic-intellectual agnostic. Does this make me a child of a lesser God? Does this make me a bad person? I dont think so. But one thing I know for sure, I am no longer scared of the abstracts, of death and of the unexplained. Instead I am now blessed with the ability to feel God’s love for me. Two words to describe it: absolutely awsome!

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it out of religious conviction. Blaise Pascal

more in http://www.rimafauzi.blogspot.com

Wavatar Sushihunt
Mar. 7, 2008

Ooooh Meneer Colson. What a boring topic! hahahaha…. (just kidding). Religion schmeligion. This topic is only good to discuss in a pub, drinking wit bier and smoking cigars… hahahahaha…

So tell me… if I’m a believer of something, does that make the ‘something’ as my religion? Seriously…, religion schmeligion.

Oh, and I got what you meant, even when you write shorter post.

Be happy grandpa Colson! Write long posts about how nice spring in Holland is ;-)

Proost!

Wavatar colson
Mar. 8, 2008

@rima: I admire you’re courage and it’s great you’ve seemed to have found a fitting balance in life.

And I think the quote you took from Pascal is awfully apt.

@sushihunt: I think if what one believes in is “something” with the characteristics of an Utopia, yes I’m afraid it dangerously resembles an organized religion.

Proost to you too!

Wavatar sufehmi
Mar. 9, 2008

Most people are only able to lambast religious fanatics, without realizing that Hitler/Mao/etc are atheists. You realized this. And you made longer comments than the posts :D

I have got great friends from all kind of believers – atheists, christians, sikhs, muslims, etc. It’s really a joy knowing them.

On the other hands, I know weirdos from all kind of believers as well – atheists, christians, sikhs, muslims, etc. They made the hair on my back stood up. Scary stuff.

Great blog, am now stuck on this.

Wavatar colson
Mar. 9, 2008

@sufehmi: Even weirdo’s are often good company. But a weirdo with a weapon in his hands can be dangerous. Especially an organized bunch of weirdo’s-in-the-overdrive, playing with this particular weapon called utopia, is potentially lethal.

Do we agree?

Wavatar mulia
Mar. 9, 2008

@ coslon :

i am not sure. i still enjoy hang out with my Hizbut Tahrir friends, Tarbiyah, NII..well this one is a bit scary but still interesting. Got a best friend that used to kill people too. Each human is interesting. maybe not as interpersonal forever best friends, but many of them are like soul friends for me. i like to hang out with these kind of guys in ‘pengajian’, mosques, bars, churches or in messenger to learn other people’s point of view. their heart are wonderful, only sometimes their movement are controversial. my prophet said..the truth can come from any body. to me, it’s true.

Wavatar colson
Mar. 9, 2008

@mulia: ??????

Ah, I see. You want a spicy discussion. Well, okay, as long as both of us do it for the sake of argument. So, I also add a extra dose of sambal to this dish. Read and shiver….

Let’s start by saying that Hizbut Tahrir to me looks awfully like one example of “an organized bunch of weirdo’s-in-the-overdrive with this particular weapon called utopia” (worldwide Caliphate here, heaven in afterlife), in their hands.

This is the kind of company I should tell my (grand)children to avoid at any price. I’m not particularly fond of people who look down on other people ( for instance on kafir, like myself) as inferior to themselves.

They remind me of the main lesson of my lifetime. That lesson is what happened when the Nazi’s got the idea that they were superior Aryans who were entitled to rule the world. To purify the world from evil they tried to extinguish the inferior Homosexuals, the Roma, the Jews and Slavonic peoples in the process.

It’s possible even an extremist is good at heart. It’s possible one of those squads of Hitler’s SS, loved his wife, his children and helped his neighbors. Maybe your killer friend is fundamentally also kind to friends, family and fellow believers. But till he/she is cured from extremism, he/she should be in a lunatic asylum or behind bars.

Nota Bene: All this is for the sake of argument, mind you. Still libertarian friends, I hope?

Wavatar sufehmi
Mar. 9, 2008

Do we agree?

Absolutely sir. :)
No armed extremist, checked.

You hit another note when you mention about these extremist actually having a good will. I have met many such person; they really, truly wish that the world to become a better place. And they are willing to sacrifice anything to realize that.

However, they were tricked by their leaders and many other fallacies, and ended up destroying the world instead. We should really pity them (except for the truly wicked ones)

An example is about Hizbut Tahrir. I mentioned them briefly in my comment here

Being the majority in Indonesia, we really need more muslims to be enlightened. It’s the only way to ensure Indonesia’s welfare.
And by enlightened, I don’t mean to become liars & manipulators like several people at JIL.

I am most definitely stuck on this blog :D

Wavatar mulia
Mar. 9, 2008

Colson, i cant stand laughing when i read your reply (and shivering of course :( hehe..sorry, but i can imagine you were typing with anxious face and furious gesture..well, ok, i must be exaggerating it. but yes, it’s a bit hilarious. And of course we are still libertarian friends :) . sorry, i don’t mean to offend you. I was just so bad in expressing my opinion. i make you misunderstand me. Ok, i’ll try again now:

As Pak Harry mentioned.. There are wonderful people too in that kind of organizations. I joint them and followed their group discussions when i was younger. some lesson were truly enlightening, some were truly confusing, even worse, some were too hilarious to be true. i remember one time, i almost thought the lesson was a joke, before i realize they meant it. haha.

but i still keep in touch with few of them now. one of the HT media campaign manager is my very good friend. if you notice, HT is now in compromise situation. not as radical as few years back. their publications are also a lot softer.

I even become libertarian after i join more than one and found some truths in each of them, as well as some question marks in all of them. and that show me where should i stand; outside their circle.

my killer friend is now cured :D . but when he shared stories about why he did, how he did such things..my emphatic hearth just fell for him. and it makes me see these kind of people from different point of view.

these people stand for somethings they believe in, and so do we. when we think they are lost, perhaps it’s the same way they are looking at us; the lost people, kafir, non kaffah muslim, etc. in my libertarian opinion, we must also respect them. not to fight harshly, but to show our stands. I think that’s what libertarian is all about; I want to save the world, but if you think differently, it’s OK.

Still friends? :D

if you still disagree, it’s OK. I’m libertarian, i mind not :) .But you should keep giving me advice, probably it’s me and my naifs point of view.

and pak Harry, i adore you even more now. It has been long time since i feel the same way about JIL. But the problem is, i read to less to write that much. Bravo pak!

Every body, shall we start the libertarian movement now?
(Gee Colson, your shortest post makes the longest comments!)

Wavatar colson
Mar. 10, 2008

@sufehmi: You flatter me by assuming I command Bahassa Indonesia by referring to your posts. But I’ve to admit that, unlike “bonnie 2405″and “pelopor”, I don’t. Fortunately a large part of the blogging on your site is in English too.

@mulia: “Still friends”? YOU BET!

Wavatar mulia
Mar. 10, 2008

good, i’m happy :)

Wavatar therry
Mar. 17, 2008

Was it Beyonce or someone else who quoted this? I can’t remember, but it’s a nice one, “My religious belief is a personal matter that involves only two people: me and God.”

Wavatar colson
Mar. 17, 2008

@Therry: Spot on.

You quote Beyonce, I’ll quote a pop star of my generation, John Lennon:

“Imagine there’s no countries
it isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…”

It’s childish and naive, but kind of appealing, don’t you think?

Wavatar therry
Mar. 19, 2008

Imagine by John Lennon;

that’s actually the description I’ve put in the ‘religion’ section of my facebook profile :P

yeah, people really mess things up and use religion as the reason for everything. damn.

Wavatar Diny
Mar. 23, 2008

“MAYBE RELIGIONS ARE HARMLESS, BUT BELIEVERS VERY OFTEN ARE NOT.”

How true. How unfortunate. How sad.
About twenty years ago, I was always in fear knowing that I would never be a sin-free person and that I’d ended up in hell and got tortured in 1001 different ways.
Now I determine to not put my children in that fear ever.
Meneer Colson, you are not alone. Being an agnostic/atheisty, my family’s definitely an outcast in our neighborhood.

Wavatar geekgirl
Apr. 1, 2008

hello mr. colson, i found your comment in this blog about facts of indonesia
http://journal.marisaduma.net/2008/02/20/did-you-know-fun-facts-about-indonesia/

your question:
“in what way do the authorities check the individual level of religiousness? Is there a kind of mind police?”

well, the government simply put it in “verblijfs document” indicating which religion we chose to follow. if we don’t have any, then just pick the one you like to put in there. an agnostic guy i know, put “buddhism” as he thinks it’s really minority. so, no police will try to read minds.

greetings!

Wavatar colson
Apr. 2, 2008

@ diny: I sympathize with you – I’ve gone through a similar development (long, long ago).
To me at least the organized monotheistic religions (once more: I don’t mean the religion, I mean some or many of the believers) are too gruesome in their gospels, too implausible in the face of matters of injustice to the poor, they show too much intolerance by their authoritarian stands and too little room for doubt and they suffered too often from absenteeism at the scenes of horror and genocide.

(Which doesn’t mean I do not notice that for a lot of people religion serves a a major comfort in times of despair and pain. And it seems to provide a kind of calm and quietness for some if they are confronted with existential questions. Of course anybody should be entitled to find his/her own way to set his/her soul at ease and free – if someone chooses the way of religion, that’s fine. )

@geekgirl: Thank you for the information. Pragmatism in matters like these is the best way out indeed.

But on principal this solution is superficial. If by law it is an obligation to be “religious”, it is not a reliable way for the authorities to check someone’s religiousness. I guess there is none. To make religion obligatory in my opinion is only an invasion of one’s privacy and an invitation to hypocrisy. A subtle way to make citizens comply, to domesticate them.